David Senra: Michael, thank you very much for doing this. Always a pleasure to spend more time with you. It's been, some of my favorite past few dinners have been with you. I want to actually start with something that you just said before we were recording that, that made me laugh out loud. That you said that Marc Andreessen scares the crap out of you. Why'd you say that?

Michael Ovitz: Talking to him is like taking a test. It's like being in high school and taking an exam or a final in college in every conversation. He's got the most extraordinary ability to analyze, to recall information, to organize it as he's thinking and speaking. There's probably three different processes going on in his brain simultaneously while he's talking. His recalls, I've never seen anything like it. Everything he reads. In the old days when I was going to meet with him over board issues, I always had to study up very carefully on what we were going to talk about. But, and I say this in the most loving way.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: He's the most terrific guy, and he's grown, and he's prospered, and he's one of the smartest human beings I've ever met in my entire life.

David Senra: So, you think his recall is, comes naturally, I thought you have great recall. I've watched all your interviews, the conversations we've had. You do have this encyclopedic knowledge, especially about the work you were doing at CAA. But I feel the way you would describe it is like you have to work a lot harder.

Michael Ovitz: I think there's certain human beings that are gifted with some raw, innate processing power that is just greater than others. I think we all have processing power, but it's a question of degrees. And then within the processing power, there's specific silos that each of us either excel at or are average at or not as good as.

Michael Ovitz: With Marc, and Michael Creighton, Peter Thiel, and quite a few of the top people in creative and top people in tech have this ability to process information at a very ultra-rapid speed. And it's foundationally set in the ability to recall information that they have inventoried.

Michael Ovitz: And it's very hard to do, especially in the world of technology where you're touching constantly new ideas, so everything's different. And yes, there's some through line, but each business that's being started has a different conceit.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: And then on top of it, these guys, I find them fascinating for another reason. They're really nice people. Even though they have an intellectual superiority, they don't laud it over you, and they're chameleon, they kind of adjust to the level that they're talking to.

David Senra: Say more about that.

Michael Ovitz: As an agent, I had to ratchet my discussions up or down based on whether it was a creative discussion, a self-help discussion for a client, or for a buyer, because we did a lot of counseling for buyers because it was a good way to build over a bridge to them and be able to have access.

Michael Ovitz: Ratcheting up or down based on mood, based on what you read at the moment, and what your frame of reference about the person is. But you can't talk to everybody the same way. One has to make a quick... Well, let me rephrase. At least for me.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: I can't speak for anybody else, and I know Marc does this too, you kind of look at who you're talking to and then decide just how deep are you going to go and go how far. When I was on the board of Marc's first company, Loudcloud, they were dealing in an area that, frankly, I really at the beginning in 1999 didn't understand it, because they were talking about the cloud. I don't think anybody we were selling to understood what the cloud really was.

Michael Ovitz: It was this amorphous idea of storing data offsite, not in a machine, but in a machine, but not a machine that's with you, it's a machine that's in the ether, but there is no real machine in the ether. So you're thinking about all this, and we're building a business around it. And I watched Marc handle, and Ben Horowitz. Ben is the most practical, brilliant guy I've ever met. Ben Horowitz is not only really smart.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: When you talk to him, you get the sense you're talking to the guy next door who's smart, but he doesn't make it ultra-clear that he's smarter than you are, so it's very, very gracious, warm, and accommodating. Or if he wants to make a point or if he's being a disciplinarian, he can change his level.

Michael Ovitz: I've watched him get angry at someone, and turn into an absolute person of strength and movement and aggressive that you wouldn't know normally, because he's very even-tempered. But all these guys, sitting in meetings with Ben and Marc, for example, is fantastic because they play off each other. They've been together, they're friends, I guess 35 years.

David Senra: I'm glad you brought that up because I've been thinking about the co-founder relationship recently. In many case, I've read almost 400 biographies of historically successful entrepreneurs so far. I would say that most co-founder relationships are actually tenuous, or it seems to be one main guy. Even if they start the company with multiple people, it's like usually really one person. And I think I've just finished reading about what may be the greatest co-founder relationship in history. It's the Michelin brothers, who in the late 1800s take over a failing family factory in a remote part of France.

David Senra: The younger brother's in his late 20s, the older brother's in his late 30s. They build,  essentially from almost scratch or even from a negative position because the factory's almost bankrupt, they build a family dynasty that lasts 100 years. The company, 130 years later, is still prospering, still one of the best tire companies in the world, and they did it by division of responsibilities, which kind of reminded me of what you were just saying about Mark and Ben, where the younger brother made the product, and the older brother sold the product.

David Senra: They just happened to be the best in the world at both of those things, and coming together, they ran the company till they both died. 40, they had a partnership for 45 years. What is it that you see when you observed Mark and Ben together that you thought they had a complementary skill set?

Michael Ovitz: Well, first of all, the obvious when I first met them 25 years ago, they could finish each other's sentences before they started that business because they had worked together before and they're friends.

Michael Ovitz: I think at the underlying foundation of partnerships in any business, there's got to be a respect for their business acumen, there has to be complementary personalities, they can't both be the same, and there has to be complementary temperament, and there has to be a shared vision. And that's hard to find, and as you kind of hinted at, you saw two successful founders with the Michelin brothers.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: I can name you too many co-founded businesses where always one of the founders ends up getting pushed out.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: And-

David Senra: I would say that's, based on the reading I've done, more like the more likely outcome.

Michael Ovitz: I don't want to put a percentage on it because I honestly don't know but if you asked me off the top of my head, I'd say 90%. It's very hard to have two strong founders that share a singular vision, like you talk about the Michelin brothers and that have a division of responsibilities. It's very difficult. But Mark and Ben, for example, Mark knows everything that's going on in the company, but Ben operates it, and Mark's very comfortable with that. And Mark has phenomenal instincts about companies, and so does Ben. Ben also comes at looking at a business as a guy who's operated multiple businesses and sold businesses.

David Senra: Yeah.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: Very hard to find leaders who understand principles of business, how to execute them, how to handle people, how to be a leader, how to get along with your co-founder, how to have an intellectual process to support your vision, and how to unfold your vision, and while you're doing that, to be open-minded. That's really difficult.

Michael Ovitz: At CAA, I spent an enormous amount of time making sure that the executives in the company were stable in their personal lives, their professional lives, not in any order, by the way, in their growth, their profile.

David Senra: You did this through one-on-ones with them?

Michael Ovitz: I had a system that was pretty random, frankly, but I did a-- And I wrote about this, we discussed it last time when I was in town, which I tried to be in town four days, three to four days a week, but I traveled to New York every week, to Japan once a month, and to Europe once a month, and I did, I decided to do everything short. So if I went to New York, I would go for one day.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: But I'd get, in that one day, breakfast, lunch, drinks, dinner, meetings in between, and after dinner, fly back to LA and pick up the time, and then make it into the office the next day so I could get what I called a six-day week, and I got the idea from my college roommate who gave me as a gift a joke clock which had 25 hours in it. And it had a one, it had zero through 25.

David Senra: Yeah.

David Senra: I spent a lot of time with Michael Ovitz, and one thing that is obvious when you study his career is that Ovitz made working with the very best people a priority, people like Martin Scorsese, Robert De Niro, Michael Crichton, Marc Andreessen, and the founder of Nobu. Ovitz knew, just like Steve Jobs knew, that you always bet on talent. In fact, Steve Jobs has this great quote where he said, "You must find the extraordinary people. A small team of A players can run circles around a giant team of B and C players. And so you must build a team that pursues the A players."

David Senra: And that is exactly what Ramp has done. Ramp is the presenting sponsor of this podcast, and Ramp has the most talented technical team in their industry. Becoming an engineer at Ramp is nearly impossible. In the last 12 months, Ramp has hired only .23% of the people that applied.

David Senra: That means when you use Ramp, you now have top-tier technical talent and some of the best AI engineers on the planet working on your behalf 24/7 to automate and improve all of your business's financial operations, and they do this on a single platform. Ramp gives your business fully programmable corporate credit cards for your entire team, automated expense reporting, bill payments, accounting, and more, all in one place. The longer you use Ramp, the more efficient your company becomes.

David Senra: This is important because, as Sam Walton said in his autobiography, "You can make a lot of different mistakes and still recover if you run an efficient operation, or you can be brilliant and still go out of business if you're too inefficient." Ramp helps you run an efficient organization. I run my business on Ramp, and so do most of the other top founders and CEOs I know. I hear from people that listen to this podcast every day that have switched to Ramp and rave about the quality of the product. In fact, Matt Paulson, the founder of Marketbeat just sent me a message.

David Senra: He said that Ramp had helped him cut $420,000 in monthly expenses. Make sure you go to ramp.com today to learn how they can help your business save both time and money. That is ramp.com. This is what I was trying to tell people, like since we've become friends. Obviously, you're a legend, people love your book, and they're like, "How's Ovitz?" I'm like, "You ever heard any of my episodes on 'Rockefeller'?"

David Senra: He's like "The Terminator," where one of my favorite stories of "Rockefeller" is obviously in the very beginning of the oil industry, there at the ground floor. One of the things they miss when they analyze his company is just how well-funded he was. He was relentless at raising money, and he went into every single battle that he had with his competitors with the biggest war chest by far. In any biography on "Rockefeller," it'd be written about.

Michael Ovitz: No.

David Senra: And what I loved about "Rockefeller." You have a little bit of this in you, where he would go to every single bank or any partner, and he'd be like, "I need money. I would like to borrow money." And obviously, he tells them why. They say, "No," and he goes, "That's fine," gets up, not mad, upset. He says something in there just like, "It made no difference to me. I'm just one step closer to getting what I actually want." So that person said "No, I go to the next one and do another meeting, and then I get money." "Okay, good. Now I go to the next one.

David Senra: And he just set it up all day long until he comp..." Basically, he set his schedule up where every single hour of the day was going to be dedicated to this task, and then once the task is done, then what else is on the next task, and I'll do the exact same thing. Just absolutely relentless, almost... They said he went about his business like a farmer plows a field.

Michael Ovitz: Yeah. So I'll tell you a story that I told 500 guests at a party I held for the MoMA Board of Trustees at our home, at Tamar's and my home. When David... The last couple years of David's life, we hosted all the trustees in Los Angeles for the annual meeting, and we gave a dinner. And we invited a lot of people from politics, from entertainment, and from the museum and gallery world.

Michael Ovitz: And I told this story because David had just passed away, and I told it because his son was there. I never went to an art museum, and you know I love art.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: You've been to the house and you know that I'm absolutely certifiably insane and should probably be put in an institution. But I love it.

David Senra: You were commenting on the chairs before.

Michael Ovitz: Well, because I just love aesthetics.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: And I learned that from my directors in the '70s.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: They would look at things, and everything they looked at showed up in a movie someday.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: So they registered everything, and I learned to register. But I never went to an art museum till I was 18. Now, think about that and think about your being at my home with 300 pieces of art hanging, right?

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: And I went to New York for four days, because that's all I had off. I'd never been. I left L.A. I was working full-time. I was 18 years old. And I worked because I needed to, because my family, unfortunately, didn't really have the means to support me. Which, by the way, turned out to be helpful in my later life, oddly.

David Senra: Why do you think it's helpful?

Michael Ovitz: Because it gave me a sense of drive, ambition, and a goal-oriented thinking that any of my friends that didn't grow up like that sort of either it was binary. They either had it or they didn't have it. And most of the time, they didn't have it. But some of them did, by the way. When I was in New York, I had four days, and I had all these things mapped out to see. I'd done all this homework. I needed to see the Village. I wanted to go to SoHo. I wanted to go to art galleries.

Michael Ovitz: I wanted to go to their 10 museums, I wanted to go to all of them. Of course, I over... My appetite's always bigger than my stomach. So, I went to MoMA. I left six hours later. And I went back the next day, and I went back the third day. It absolutely changed my life. And I then remember sitting in my office at CAA in my...

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: This is probably 15, 16 years later, and I'm telling this story and David Rockefeller's sitting in the front, at the front table at this dinner for 500 people. And the phone, my assistant buzzes in and says... And I had a phone assistant, one for incoming and one for outgoing calls. So the incoming assistant says, "Michael, Mr. Rockefeller for you."

Michael Ovitz: And I didn't skip a beat and I said, "Tell Bill Murray I'll call him back." Because Bill used to call under different names all the time. And he could get away with it most of the time. So I'm in the middle of something crazy and Bill would give a name that he knew I had to pick up. And I love the guy to this day. He's one of the greatest human beings on the planet.

Michael Ovitz: A guy who I will be loyal to till the day I die, For a whole series of reasons, which I'm happy to come back to. So my assistant said, "It's David Rockefeller." I said, "Tell Bill that I'll call him back." She says, "No, I think it really is Mr. Rockefeller. It's his assistant, and her name's Marnie, and she wants you to-- Mr. Rockefeller's trying to reach you." I said, "Look, it's not David Rockefeller. You know it's Bill."

Michael Ovitz: Just get a number, I'll call him back." She said, "Okay."

David Senra: Why would it be so unbelievable that Rockefeller was calling you at that time in your career?

Michael Ovitz: Because I'm a guy in L.A. with a beginning art collection, basically, no real cultural profile. And this is David Rockefeller. He's a legend in the world of business and culture. His mother started MoMA. If you read the book "Picasso's War," which is fascinating, I told you about it at dinner it talks about the Rock, about Abby Rockefeller, and the women that started MoMA. There were three women that started the museum in the '30s. And David grew up around art. I grew up around nothing.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: It's like I was in the San Fernando Valley and a wasteland.

David Senra: One of my favorite parts of your book is that exact line where you're like, "I could see the problem is that not only where I grew up and what you were very aware of, because you could see where you wanted? You knew where you were, but you could see the mansions of Beverly Hills. You could see the Brentwood."

Michael Ovitz: Well, we went over the hill every weekend to Westwood.

David Senra: That part of your book I absolutely love, where you're having initial success, nowhere near what's going to come in the future, but enough to buy your first house in Brentwood, and you wake up, and I'm getting goosebumps thinking about this, because I've had a couple experiences like that in my life, where you're like, "I can't believe..." In your book, you said, "I can't believe I live in Brentwood."

Michael Ovitz: Listen, I still have those feelings at this stage of my life. Tamara and I were talking about this the other night. It happened in New York, not-- It was a few days around our dinner.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: And we were walking around looking at art, and we looked at each other, and it was a weekend. It was a Sunday, actually. And we said, "Wow, we have an amazing life." We were talking about looking at art, and then we're going to be going on vacation in Europe, and I get to be with my grandkids and her daughter and my kids, and I said, "We're just really, really lucky." But the Rockefeller thing was luck.

Michael Ovitz: I didn't think he knew me, so I thought it was a joke, and I had a lot of times clients calling, saying they were people that they weren't, because they thought it was funny.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: And they were pretty good at the imitations. Anyways, I called back, and sure enough, it was David Rockefeller. Got on the phone and he said, "I would like to meet you." And I said, "Sure, but why?" And he said, "What do you mean, why?" I said, "Because I'm in L.A. I'm in the entertainment business. We are in a culture, but a very different kind than you. And I'm a giant admirer of everything you've done."

David Senra: Yeah.

David Senra: How old were you when this is taking place? You had already founded CAA, right?

Michael Ovitz: Probably about 40.

David Senra: Okay. So you're-

Michael Ovitz: 38, 40.

David Senra: ... 10 years into CAA or so.

Michael Ovitz: Yeah.

David Senra: Okay.

Michael Ovitz: But anyways, to make a long story short, I said, "I'm in New York every week. I'll come meet you." He said, "No, I want to come meet you." And then, I was floored, because I go to New York every week. And I told him that the second time. He said, "No, I see you're building a building with I. M. Pei. You've got a painting by Roy Lichtenstein." He said, "These are very interesting choices for someone your age in California."

Michael Ovitz: And He wasn't denigrating California, but he was kind of making it clear we were one of the very first, not the first, but one of the very first architecturally inspired buildings with a top American architect in Los Angeles. It wasn't a thing to do architecture of note in Los Angeles.

Michael Ovitz: And before I chose I. M. Pei, I spent a lot of time, and I researched all the top architects in the world and made that decision, and to this day, I'm thrilled that I had that relationship. But David came out. We hit it off. In my office, he asked me to go on the board. I became the youngest board member on the board. I think the second time that they had someone that young.

Michael Ovitz: I think Ron Lauder was younger than me when he went on, and we built a relationship, and I learned so much. But here's the point, to your point that you just made, about David Rockefeller doing things without doing them.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: It's kind of like that famous Bruce Lee line about punching without punching.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: Which I've never forgotten, because it's simple but apocryphal. And David raised all the money by himself to build the new museum.

Michael Ovitz: And he took me out to dinner after I was a trustee, and we spent three hours talking about politics, art, people, things that had happened in his life, travel, his 10,000 index card file, because there were no-- There wasn't a computer, so every time he met someone, If he met David Senra, he put your name and contact on a three-by-five card under S Alphabetized.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: And he was so proud of it. It was in his office. And he said to me nothing about giving money, not one word. And as we're leaving, I said to him, "How's the fundraising going?" He said, "Really good. I'm getting a lot of support. I'll talk to you soon."

Michael Ovitz: And I made a donation that was a lot larger than I thought I would. He never asked me to make a donation. And then I found out later he had that same meeting with every trustee. He didn't ask one for a dime.

David Senra: So is this just black-belt-level sales?

Michael Ovitz: This is as good as I've ever seen. And by the way, hard to explain this to you because I'm a salesman and...

David Senra: Maybe the best in the world?

Michael Ovitz: Well, I'm a salesperson. I don't know if I'm the best, but I'm fairly good at it.

David Senra: Yeah.

David Senra: I had dinner with Marc Andreessen. Jared Kushner, our mutual friend, invited me to go to dinner with Marc, and I asked him about you because I was going to meet you, and as we said, "The best in the world."

Michael Ovitz: Well, Marc's prejudiced because I'm crazy about Marc and I consider him family. But I think the idea of having that kind of restraint, I'm not... I don't think I could've-

David Senra: I wouldn't even think to do that.

Michael Ovitz: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: No, because I would've had to, at the end, say something to feel I'd accomplished my intention in the mission. He didn't say a word, and he didn't even come close to it. It's almost like, "You want to contribute? Great. You don't? That's okay too." But he never said the word contribute. He never talked about money. He talked about the architecture, but he talked about where to hang the collection. He talked about other things in the world, but three hours, not a word. Not one word.

David Senra: He was how much older than you? Couple decades?

Michael Ovitz: Oh, God. David, God, we just celebrated his hun-- He died at, it's going to he was probably twice my age.

David Senra: See, and you're, so let's say you're 40 at the time, he's 80. This is something, I'm-

Michael Ovitz: I'm guessing. I don't know why.

David Senra: Yeah, we don't need an exact number but it's not like an older brother. It's like a father.

Michael Ovitz: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: No, he took me to one of the White House Correspondents' Dinners in Washington, the two of us. It was one of the greatest nights of my life. You talk about pinching yourself. I'm in his limo, with him, driving to the airport, in his plane, in his car, to the White House Correspondents' Dinner. It was just he and I, walking in. He knew every single person in the room, and if he didn't, they knew him.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: And I'm sitting there. I'm like, "It's hard to impress me," I hate to say, because I travel around and I've met a lot of people.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: Just knocked my socks off. He knew everyone in the room. And sitting at his table that night was an experience to behold because everyone came up to pay their respects to him, and it was such an eye-opening experience, and he was always even, and always the same polite guy to everybody. Even people that we knew he didn't care for.

Michael Ovitz: He had a very short attention span for people with no integrity, because his integrity was so high, it was like a learning experience for me. But I got to be pretty good friends with him, and every lunch, dinner, or outing with him was a graduate course in something.

David Senra: This is just an incredible opportunity, so sometimes I feel like almost like a bit of a middle child because of the work I do on Founders. I get to meet world-class entrepreneurs, I get to go spend time with them, have dinner. Many of them are much older. And then I also talk to younger entrepreneurs, and the advice, to the degree that they ask me, that I give to younger entrepreneurs is, try to spend time... If David Rockefeller was, let's say, 80 years old at this point, he's not twice as smart and twice as experienced as a 40-year-old. It's an uneven distribution.

David Senra: He's like 10X, because of this idea, it's like how many... He's seen every deal, he's met every person, he's just had so much more time to observe what actually takes place in the world. He's read a lot more, he's had all this experience, it's like, and you can... You know, I feel this way when we've had these three-hour dinners in New York. It's like, man, the amount of information I learn from you in three hours, it's not like a person that's half your age. We could have spent the exact same amount of time together. It's just you're just have so much more lived experience. And it's the-

Michael Ovitz: But it's my thesis about frame of reference. This old saying that people always say, as you get older, "I wish I knew then what I do now," happens to be 1,000% accurate, and I'll tell you why. You just said it, David. Longevity automatically promotes more meetings, human interactions, and experiences. That in itself creates more frames of reference.

Michael Ovitz: The more frame of reference you have, the more experienced you are to make difficult decisions, because you've seen outcomes. I was on the phone last night with one of my kids on a personal matter that she was having, and I explained that...

Michael Ovitz: I was thinking about her situation, and the benefit that I have that she or the person she's having the problem with doesn't have is that I've seen the movie before.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: I've either packaged the movie, seen the movie, or read the script that never got made. I've seen it fictionally done, non-fictionally done, done as a documentary, done based on historical fact, done based on someone's biography. I've just been around too long.

Michael Ovitz: Therefore, I know what silo her situation fits into, and I said to her, "You cannot see what I can see." And I said, "You're going to get off the phone and you're going to go, 'Dad is really a jerk.'"

Michael Ovitz: Because I'm not preaching to you, but you have to understand, I've just seen it, and I have, and I know exactly what's going on, and I see it from both sides, by the way. But it's all about frame of reference, and I do wish that I had, when I started the agency, the knowledge bank of experiences that I have now. I wish when I started collecting art I had that knowledge bank of frame of reference of pieces of art that I have now.

David Senra: Well, your frame of reference from people specifically is very interesting to me, because think about the one of the things I wanted to talk to you about, it's okay. It's very obvious, I have a few obsessions. One of my obsessions is people who get to the very top of their profession. I don't even care what the profession is. It could be building CAA, it could be a basketball player, it could be a sushi chef. It doesn't matter. I'm obsessed with people who become the best in the world at what they do. And I was thinking about you.

David Senra: Not only did you become the best in the world at what you did, but you worked with, competed against, built relationships with countless other people that were also the best in the world at what they did, and I was very curious, and I kind of study this on Founders, just like, you met these people, you interacted with them, compete against them. I read about them, and I was very curious if you could describe the one common trait. What do you think is the most important common trait for the people that you observe that are the best in the world at what they do, yourself included?

Michael Ovitz: Well, let me give you an example, a practical one.

David Senra: Okay.

Michael Ovitz: So, two weeks ago, I'm having lunch with a friend of mine at Nobu, and in walks Nobu, who is my exact age, who, when I met him, had just opened a sushi bar on La Cienega Boulevard called Matsuhisa.

Michael Ovitz: And I remember meeting him because I would go sometimes for business or occasionally by myself, because the one great lesson I learned very early on going to Japan is, the best place in the world to eat if you're alone is at a sushi bar, because you could actually not feel uncomfortable doing that. And I met Nobu when he was his own... He was the chef, the manager, the menu planner.

Michael Ovitz: It was just him and two other guys and his wife. That was Nobu's start. Now, you look at what Nobu's got right now. Nobu has an empire. I don't know how many restaurants they've got, they're all over the world. He's got hotels. He's got bottled and packaged goods. He's got everything. I would imagine he's got a billion-dollar empire.

Michael Ovitz: When I met Nobu, I took note. I said, "This guy's got something special." I didn't quite know what it was. But several years later, I introduced Nobu to Bob De Niro, and he and Nobu started the present business with a sushi restaurant called Nobu, not Matsuhisa, which was fascinating that he didn't try to take his personal brand and put it with Bob. He took his first name.

Michael Ovitz: They opened the first Nobu in New York, in Tribeca, which was no man's land at the time. But Bobby had a hunch because he was developing property in Tribeca, and he was a huge believer when everyone around him was negative and advised him against it. And he convinced Nobu to open there.

Michael Ovitz: It became an instant hit, and they have this amazing business right now. I had this hunch about Nobu. I had this hunch about Wolfgang Puck. When I met him the first time, he was in his 20s, Austrian guy.

Michael Ovitz: I said, "This guy not only is a great chef, but like Nobu, he had a fantastic personality." Why is it I went out to every meal of my life as an agent for my whole life, I went out every night and every lunch, and I picked those two guys? Frame of reference. Because I knew in interacting with them, they had something special.

David Senra: Is this an intuition that you have, or is this something concrete you picked up about their personality, or the way they approach their work?

Michael Ovitz: No, it's like the general thesis for me, and I use it to this day. I use it in my tech investing and have since 1992. I used it in finding clients. I used it in building careers. I used it in making relationships. I'm interested in growth, personal growth. I'm interested in being the best at whatever I get into, to the point of it probably not being healthy. I'm interested in excellence, okay?

David Senra: Oh, we've got to talk about that. Keep going.

Michael Ovitz: And I am interested in excellence, and will go to almost any end that's not immoral or illegal to achieve it for myself and everyone that's around me.

David Senra: Is it excellence for the sake of excellence? What is driving you?

Michael Ovitz: I meet people, okay? And within 10 minutes, my brain automatically scans whatever is coming to me, and it compares them to people in their silo, to people outside their silo, to people with personality traits that are similar. It compares all the positive and negatives. It's the same thing when I collect art.

Michael Ovitz: When young men or women that I mentor in collecting art want that, they ask me, "What should they read?" I say, "Nothing." I said, "Start looking at images and bookmark whatever you like, and then come back to it a couple days later, see if you still like it." I look, to this day, probably at 200 images a day. I looked at 10 this morning before I came over here at seven o'clock this morning, of a painting show in London.

Michael Ovitz: And the reason I do it is, the more images I can put in my head... It's kind of primitive AI in a strange way, because I'm, like, machine learning, and my brain's the machine.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: I tell all my AI guys and girls, who are all much younger than me except for a couple guys at Stanford that I work with that are professors that are actually... I guess they're in their 50s and 60s. There's a thing they call ML, which is machine learning, and I call it ML, moron learning.

Michael Ovitz: So, I ask them to explain my version of ML when we're doing a complicated AI deal together.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: But I have kind of a personal AI that I've created that ticks off all these boxes automatically. I told you when I met you, you're very good at interviewing. You keep a conversation going. You know what to ask. What you did on Tamara's book is insane. You read a book, and in 50 minutes or 60, it's condensed into the most salient points, and you met her only socially.

David Senra: Yeah.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: It's not possible unless you have a talent. So, my perception is additive. I thought you had talent. Then you prove it over and over. I listened to your... I told you, I went back and I've listened to every one you've done.

David Senra: Yeah, I appreciate that.

Michael Ovitz: You don't have to appreciate it. I've got a master's degree in people I never heard of.

David Senra: So, I should bring this up, the first time we ever talked, and it was just pure chance, is we share a mutual friend in Rick Gerson.

Michael Ovitz: Yeah.

David Senra: And I'm having breakfast with Rick, and you guys have been friends for, like, 25 years.

Michael Ovitz: Right.

David Senra: And me and Rick are real close friends in the last few years. And we're at breakfast, and his phone is on the table. And it rings, and I'm like, "Oh, s***, that's Michael Ovitz." Because I had read your book already. I obviously knew who you were, but we had never spoken. And then he picks it up on speakerphone, and Rick's been hugely supportive, and he tries to push my podcast on everybody in the world, and he's very successful doing so. And then he goes, "Hey, I'm sitting here with, you might know who he is, his name's David Senra, he does this podcast called 'Founders.'" And you're on your boat in St. Barts, I think, and there's a brief pause, and he goes, "I listened to four of them yesterday."

David Senra: And you start rattling off the ones you were... The Cornelius Vanderbilt and everything else. I heard you talk with our mutual friend Patrick about this, where you're like, "Hey, I like collecting art and people. I have a frame of reference because I've met so many people. The more people you meet, the more benchmark you have to compare people to." So, when you met Nobu... When I hear this, it almost sounds like it happens automatically, just a part of your brain where it's like-

Michael Ovitz: It's an auto-response.

David Senra: Yeah. So you can't even say what it is about that person-

Michael Ovitz: Oh, no, I can say Nobu was personable. He was an amazing chef. He made things that I'd never had before. Outside of the United States, I've had it, but not inside the-

David Senra: His actual work.

Michael Ovitz: His technical skill in cooking Japanese cuisine was the best I'd ever had.

David Senra: Yeah.

David Senra: And this is happening in a strip mall.

Michael Ovitz: No, no, he was on La Cienega Boulevard in an old restaurant, an old building he had bought.

David Senra: Yeah, so, not a-

Michael Ovitz: No, it wasn't anything special. It was just him.

David Senra: But you saw-

Michael Ovitz: Well, hear this out. He filled the room. He filled the room. And-

David Senra: His personality? What do you mean?

Michael Ovitz: Yes, he filled the room. When you were there, you knew it was his place, you knew he was a sensei, you knew he was the master chef. You wanted to sit in front of him, those four coveted seats. You wanted to talk to him, because he was interesting. He had it all. Wolfgang Puck. Saw him at his first restaurant in the United States. He was in his 20s.

Michael Ovitz: He was the chef at Ma Maison, which is no longer in existence, that only Hollywood could endorse. Plastic patio furniture in a parking lot, with a kitchen in a one-bedroom apartment at the back of it.

David Senra: And you could see it even then, though?

Michael Ovitz: Yeah. Wolfgang-

David Senra: Same thing? It's like this charisma-

Michael Ovitz: Wolfgang would walk out, go table to table, and you fell in love with this guy. This-

David Senra: So you're talking about his charisma and energy?

Michael Ovitz: Everything. This is, like, 1980-something, '81. And Wolfgang's walking around asking everyone at every table, and remembering their name, and being gracious, and being... And the food, while you're eating this amazing food like we'd never eaten before, there was no such thing as California cuisine. Clean food with a French flair, but it wasn't full of butter and oil. It was great. And you couldn't get a seat there.

Michael Ovitz: It was hysterical, the popularity of this place with a zero economic investment in infrastructure, right? But the food was to die for. And Wolfgang, you wanted to be his friend. So when he did Spago, it was... I just gave him a quote for his book, because I recognized this immediately.

Michael Ovitz: I went to Spago four nights a week up on Sunset, and I finally looked at Wolf, I said, "We've got to put you on television." And I just wrote this little story for his book. I said, "I'm bringing the president of ABC for dinner, and I want you to just go crazy. I want you to pretend you're at Baumanière," where he trained in France, "and do that kind of dinner, and whip out the best wines that aren't on the list. And I want to get this guy in your corner."

Michael Ovitz: Wolfgang served a dinner that night we spent three hours eating. There must've been 15 courses. One was better than the next. He personally brought stuff over. He hung out at the table. He talked, he's charming, he was just Wolfgang, and you loved him, you wanted to hug him. But the food was great too.

Michael Ovitz: And I got the president of ABC to sign, on a napkin, a contract for a week's work on "Good Morning America" as an audition to replace Julia Child.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: And the guy signed it, and he dated it, and I took the napkin. He also had a lot to drink. And the next day-

David Senra: Is that a key?

Michael Ovitz: And the next day, he called me and he said, "I can't thank you enough. It was the most extraordinary dinner." He said, "I have a slight recollection that I signed something. What did I sign?" I said, "Oh, you signed a contract to put Wolf, our chef that you met, the little Austrian guy who is so cute, on "Good Morning America" and try him out." He said, "I can't do that." I said, "Well, you made a deal, and you're a man of high integrity."

Michael Ovitz: So he said, "I didn't make a deal. What are you talking about?" I said, "I'm going to send one of our assistants over with the contract, and you take a look, and then you call me and tell me if you made a contract or not." So we take the napkin and pin it to someone's shirt, okay? Put a sport coat on him, arrange with the president of ABC's assistant to walk him right into the office. He walks in, the guy looks at him. He opens his coat.

Michael Ovitz: It was all in huge print. And he sees the signature. My guy closes his coat and runs out the door. My phone rings 10 seconds later. He said, "I guess I signed a deal, didn't I?" And he put him on. And he's still on.

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David Senra: I feel like you operate much more on intuition. You spent an enormous amount of time preparing. One of my favorite stories in your book, and I try to do the exact same thing in my career, is like, "Okay, I'm going to start in the mail room. Well, guess what? I'm going to go down to the file cabinets. It's this huge room that contains 70 years of history on Hollywood, and I'm going to show up two hours early, and I'm going to read. Then I'm going to work a full day, and then I'm going to go back there at night and keep reading. I'm going to work my way through in a very Rockefeller-esque way of just plowing a field until I get to the end."

David Senra: And then they use this enormous research and base of knowledge you have, and then you combine it with these experiments and the frame of reference that we just talked about. And then when you make decisions, it's almost like it's not even analytical. It's like some kind of intuition that you're having where it's like, "This guy's special. I have this guy who has power to make this guy's career better. I just need to put these two together. Let's go ahead and just write this out on a napkin." There is almost no time to analyze. Am I getting this wrong?

Michael Ovitz: No, but David, I'm going to put the question to you. You get a job in the mail room. You have no family connection. You get it on your own. It's a three-year training program. You're in the mail room. You have a college degree. You are not stupid. What's the alternative?

David Senra: No, I think this is why we get along and we've been able to build a friendship, because this is exactly what I've done with "Founders." It's just like, I did not come from money. I'm the first person in my family to do... Everybody's like, "Oh, you're the first person to graduate college." I'm the first person to graduate high school. My parents were incapable of even graduating high school.

Michael Ovitz: But I had the same thing, and the reason I say what else is the choice, there's no choice.

David Senra: No, I-

David Senra: I-

Michael Ovitz: So, I either became more knowledgeable than the 20 other... They were all men. No. Yeah, it was all men in that pledge class, in that they did, like, two times a year, they started a group in the mail room of, like, 20, 25 people. I think when I started, there were 20 or 25. I don't remember. But the point is, it's 1969. I'm 21 years old.

Michael Ovitz: I graduated UCLA in three years while working at Fox 60 hours a week, loving every second of it. Drop out of pre-med to finish degrees in psychology and business. Look for the job that I think can educate me the fastest in a business that's all about nepotism and relationship, and I don't have any.

Michael Ovitz: How do I distinguish myself differently from the 20 or 25 other pledges in what I call the pledge class? Because that's what we were. And it became pretty simply apparent to me very quickly. Everyone showed up exactly what time they were told to, which was 9:00 for a 9:30 start. Everyone showed up except me.

Michael Ovitz: I showed up at 6:30, and no one was in. I had the run of the place. So, I said to myself, "I'm going to learn everything I can faster than anyone else, and I'm never going to share with anyone what I'm doing." Let them all fend for themselves.

Michael Ovitz: Which, by the way, turned out to be good for me, because it was antithetical to my thesis on building a business, which is you share everything with everybody. And I learned that by not sharing, all these other people got killed by me. And if I'm running a business and those people are all working for me, I needed to do the opposite. I needed to include everybody in everything, have tons of meetings, tons of sharing.

Michael Ovitz: No egos, no politics. Everybody has to pull for the larger boat. You can't be in your own rowboat. You've got to be on the big boat, and you've got to make sure it's all moving.

David Senra: When you're on the same team, but the other 19 people in this group, you looked at them as competitors?

Michael Ovitz: Absolutely. My job was to eradicate every one of them. I didn't want any of them to shine.

David Senra: And so the idea there was, "Hey..." I think you said this in your book. You're like, "I don't know if I'm smarter than them, but I know for damn sure that I'm working harder."

Michael Ovitz: Well, there were several people, David, there I was not smarter than. They had unbelievable educations. Well, a couple of them had Ivy League educations. I couldn't even get into an Ivy League school. The fact is that I was in a competitive environment in a competitive business, William Morris, and a competitive arena, which is the entertainment business. It's dog-eat-dog. And it had been like that since it started.

Michael Ovitz: It never changed. I read everything I could get my hands on about the golden years of the movie business, and I used it for CAA when we started in 1974. I made up a bibliography, and, "Here's the books you need." I have used-

David Senra: Who did you give the bibliography to?

Michael Ovitz: Every one of us that were working together.

David Senra: So, you guys had a shared base of knowledge. You insisted on a shared base of knowledge with your team?

Michael Ovitz: Yeah.

David Senra: Okay.

Michael Ovitz: And our group knew history, and the reason that became important, and everyone thought, "Oh, who cares?" is because when you start talking to filmmakers in those days, and they start talking about Frank Capra, or David Lean, or Howard Hawks, or William Wyler, or Michael Curtiz, who all made some of the great black and white movies of our time...

Michael Ovitz: If you don't know what they did, how can you talk to a filmmaker? How do you do it? You can't. How did we sign every director in the business? We spoke their language.

David Senra: I've read and done episodes on, I don't know, half a dozen... I'm obsessed with directors and filmmakers. I think the analogy between a filmmaker and an entrepreneur is so clear-cut, it's very obvious. But from George Lucas, to Steven Spielberg, to Quentin Tarantino, to Christopher Nolan, every single one I've read a biography of, they have this encyclopedic knowledge of film history in their head.

David Senra: There's a great line up on this, one of my favorite maxims I learned from Charlie Munger, which is why he was so obsessed with reading and studying business history, and human history as well, is he says that learning from history is a form of leverage.

Michael Ovitz: Well, see, it's what I've always said, knowledge is power. And if you have practical knowledge combined with research knowledge, combined with intellectual knowledge, combined with a giant education about things that you dig into, and you understand how to have a deep curiosity about everything, and I mean everything, you have an edge that cannot be beaten.

Michael Ovitz: I have, sitting on my desk, probably 20 notes about things that I have seen on the internet, on Instagram, on Perplexity, on OpenAI, on Google, that have come up in other searches.

Michael Ovitz: So, I saw a new set of headphones that were wildly differently designed, and I looked it up, printed out the page on it, put it in my pile to research. And every night when I am on my computer, I take a deep dive on the moment of what's interesting to me. I love cars.

Michael Ovitz: I love mechanical watches because some of them have a thousand parts, and it's this big. I love gadgets. I love hi-fi. I can't begin... I love art.

David Senra: Did you have the curiosity even at that age when you first started in the mail room?

Michael Ovitz: Yes.

David Senra: You had to, because you wouldn't have read through all that-

Michael Ovitz: Yeah, but I didn't have... But you know what I didn't have?

David Senra: What?

Michael Ovitz: I didn't have a computer. And that changed my life.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: That changed my life. I've talked to Ben Horowitz about this a thousand times. The computer changed my life because I live on it, and it's not because I need to, it's because I want to. If you put me in a room with a computer 24 hours with no sleep, I would do it. Matter of fact, Tamara has to pull me off the computer, and gets angry at me because I learn so much every day.

Michael Ovitz: When my friends want to buy something, they call me because I've already looked at it. So if they want to buy a car, and I'm not being facetious, and I enjoy doing it, and it's rare they ask me about a car I don't know about. I mean, when I was at CAA before a computer, I had a reading list for all the agents and all the mail room people. I subscribed personally to 210 magazines. I didn't read every one.

Michael Ovitz: Don't think I did for a second. But I flipped the pages, so I had "Car and Driver," "Road & Track," "Automobile," and I'm missing one, "Motor Trend." All four. Why? I wanted to see what everyone wrote. I didn't read detailed articles. I had always read the headline, look at the pictures, read the first paragraph. If I loved an article and wanted to go further, tore it out, put it in a pile for Sunday. Every day.

Michael Ovitz: And I had "Ladies' Home Journal," "Vogue," "McCall's," "Mademoiselle." Why did I read women's magazines? Because the stylists in those magazines are six months ahead of the curve. They have to see out. I live with a fashion person, you know.

David Senra: Yeah, Tamara.

Michael Ovitz: She knows every season before something comes out. "Oh, Michael, you know? Something's back." Wow, come on. Three months later, we're in a place at a dinner, and somebody's wearing baggy jeans when everyone else was wearing tight jeans, and she calls it.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: And those stylists gave me a foundation to talk to our actresses, and to talk to their stylists. Not that I needed to go deep. I didn't. When I met Paul Newman cold, I knew there was only one thing he was interested in. He loved racing cars. Made a movie about it. That was his hobby. I had been reading about cars my whole life.

Michael Ovitz: We talked for three hours in Westport, Connecticut about cars. We never talked about his career the first time I met him.

David Senra: I think there's a line here that I always think about, that the most interesting people are the most interested.

Michael Ovitz: Absolutely.

David Senra: It doesn't matter... To me, it's like, I don't really even care what is the source of your obsession, I just like that you're obsessed with something, and you go deep on there. I do have, what I would say, kind of a selfish question for you. So I was listening to Michael Dell on a podcast, and he's got great energy, and the interviewer was asking, he was like, "Well, when you were starting Dell, how many hours did you work?" And he goes, "All of them."

David Senra: And then I read Jensen Huang's biography, and he's like, "Listen, there's not a day that goes by that I don't work. When I'm not working, I'm thinking about working. Working is relaxing for me." In your book, you had this line that when you were building your company, that every waking hour was a working hour, which is a great line. So, I see this reappear over and over again. We're absolutely obsessed with what we're doing, so it's very hard to pull us away from what we love to do.

David Senra: But there is something that I want to ask you selfishly, is you also say that if you could've worked 10% less, it wouldn't have made a difference in your professional success, but you would've been a lot happier. So, how should I be thinking about the contrast between these two statements?

Michael Ovitz: Well, it's simple. I am a curious person, as you know, like you are. You're always looking to learn. That's why listening to "Founders," for me, before I met you, was a must. I discovered it by accident. And then Rick just went in like a bulldozer to make sure I met you.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: He must've sent... You know he sent us 20 texts to get us together.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: And then he wouldn't give me your contact because he wanted to be the point of contact. Do you remember that?

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: He wouldn't put us together. He wanted to be the one to do it. So, that 10%, I would've loved to have been able to do homework.

David Senra: To me, that's working too, though. It's like professional research, you know?

Michael Ovitz: Yeah.

David Senra: Think about when you're William Morris. The two and a half hours... You get there at 6:30 in the morning, you're doing all your reading, you're working a full day, and then you're doing it again. To me, those two, the bookends to your day is just a form of professional research which also could be considered working.

Michael Ovitz: Yeah, but that... To me, the dichotomy and difference is that I'm not working to a financial goal. I'm working for self-enrichment, which itself becomes a financial product, because if I make myself wiser, better, more informed, a candidate that can give other humans that have a problem advice. Look, we all have problems. I learned this when I was 18.

Michael Ovitz: When I was working at Fox, everybody had a problem. It became very clear to me. It's why I became an agent, because I didn't need a skillset other than intelligence, persuasion, intensity, and curiosity. But I didn't have to know how to make anything, because I'm not capable of it. I'm talentless. I can't write, I can't act, I can't sculpt, I can't paint, I can't direct.

Michael Ovitz: I frankly invest off people, not off all these insane rules that a lot of my friends that are venture capitalists put up, these kind of guardrails that they won't go outside of. I've never seen a guardrail I don't try to jump. And I think that's the worst thing you can do, because it... Creative people have no guardrails.

Michael Ovitz: But for me, I realized everybody wants to have enough counsel. I will tell you, for me, someone asked me in another podcast, who was my Michael Ovitz, who was my advisor? I said, "I didn't have one, and I wish I did," because I've saved a lot of people a lot of aggravation that I went through.

Michael Ovitz: And I went through it because I didn't have anyone like me to bounce things off of that had seen the movie before.

David Senra: You didn't have it at the time you were building CAA, but did you have it after, and do you have it now?

Michael Ovitz: I do have certain people now, but it's not any one person like I am. I am an advisor to a lot of people that would shock people. And I do it because, one, I'm friends with them, two, I learn from them, three, I enjoy it, four, I'm like a protective mother of my friends. I have a very binary point of view about relationships.

Michael Ovitz: I'm not interested in any relationships in the middle. I'm interested in-

David Senra: What's the binary?

Michael Ovitz: It's from a movie I saw when I was a kid that was made in the '40s with Errol Flynn, where he drew a sword in the sand and said to his troops, "You're on one side of this line or the other. Make up your mind." So, that's me, friend or foe. I'm like the world's best friend for people, and I'm probably not a great enemy.

David Senra: ... I would not want you as an enemy.

Michael Ovitz: You know?

Michael Ovitz: So, no, because I'm very dogmatic in my support of people.

David Senra: Methodical. I think if I made an enemy of you, you'd wake up every day figuring out how to destroy me.

Michael Ovitz: Oh, I don't-

Michael Ovitz: By the way, I don't have that kind of time, and frankly, at this stage of my life, I don't have that energy for that.

David Senra: But you did for a few decades.

Michael Ovitz: Oh, I did for a long time.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: I was a guy who could tell you people that 30 years earlier did something I didn't think was right. I'm a big believer that people need to have integrity, and they need to keep their word.

Michael Ovitz: And the reason is, when we were starting CAA, and we had no money, nothing, we didn't even have a lawyer, so we were making tens of hundreds of deals with no contracts, so people had to keep their word, David. And it was very tough when you had no leverage, and someone didn't keep their word. And unfortunately, in the entertainment business, there's kind of a gradation of lying.

Michael Ovitz: The most lies when we started were in the movie business, because it takes three years to make a movie. So, you had a long time to tell different stories. The second area was music. People really didn't tell the truth in music. They still, to this day, don't. It's like-

David Senra: It's a dirty business.

Michael Ovitz: It's a dirty business. Brilliant business and tough to do. But I'm friends with a guy I have so much respect for, Lucian Grainge. This guy has more integrity than anybody I've ever met. He's got Rockefeller integrity. He just calls it as he sees it. He's transparent. He's open. He knows how to build a business. He understands talent. He understands how to read a balance sheet. He's one of the old guard guys. Diller was like that. Diller understood people. Diller could read a balance sheet.

Michael Ovitz: And Diller, like a few of us, could read a script and play the movie in his head. Not a lot of people could do that. If they did, there'd be a lot more successful companies and successful people.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: You could count on two hands the number of people in my day that could do that. And when you're in the television business, there's no lying, because you make these shows every week. So you have no time to fabricate a story and set up a ruse. And what we started at CA, which was so simple... Everyone says, "Oh, it's so revolutionary." No lying.

Michael Ovitz: If you don't have an answer, if David Senra calls you and he asks you a question, and you do not have an answer, here's your answer, "I don't know, I'm going to call you back." That was unheard of in 1974, because everyone felt they had to make up an answer to show they were in the know. My point of view was, why do that, then you've got to remember something that's a story that you made up. And it's so easy to trap people that lie because they never get the story right twice. And we took notes on everything ad nauseam. Everybody took notes on everything. Every staff meeting we had, we had a scribe taking notes for follow-up. Follow-up was the key to everything.

Michael Ovitz: You didn't even have to be smart, you had to have good follow-up. If you followed up, it kind of gave you an extra point on the smart side of the scale. So for me, it's all about truth, it's all about transparency. I was on the phone this morning. I got on the phone at 6:30 this morning working on a deal I'm putting together.

Michael Ovitz: The guy that gave us the idea, who is in another company and is not the head guy at the company, he's number three. There's a founder, a CEO, and this guy who's the COO. The COO is younger, half the age of the founder, and really bright.

Michael Ovitz: Came up with an idea, told my young partner, who you know, who's 32, which I partnered with intentionally because I wanted a young partner, period. And called him, gave him an idea. My partner immediately put him with me. I spent an hour with him five days ago. I then went and spent an hour with the guy he works for.

Michael Ovitz: I then had multiple calls with both of them separately, and then I called the guy who started it this morning at 6:30 in the morning, he's on the East Coast, to give him a 100% update of every conversation so he didn't feel left out. Did I need to do that? Most people would say no. I would say yes.

Michael Ovitz: He's now up to speed, he's supportive, and they're setting up a meeting for me with their founder, because they're comfortable they're not getting cut out, they're-

David Senra: So this is a relentless follow-up?

Michael Ovitz: Relentless. And I made the extra call. And my partner, my young partner, saw all this unfold, and fell right in step with it and handled it brilliantly. That makes me feel fantastic. Fantastic. Because he's going to be here long after me, and he carries on the torch.

Michael Ovitz: You know, look, the guys that I left CA to, some of them I get along with great, some of them don't like me, and I understand that, because they'd like me to have died, because my shadow hung over them. And we always want to kill the father, and I get it. At the end of the day, 50 years later, I think I did something right, because the place is still functioning, and it's still number one, still has the biggest market share, and it's still the most influential company.

David Senra: This is what I try to tell other founders, too. It's just like, "You guys are obsessed with these startups." Like, the goal should be to build an enduring company that lasts five decades now.

Michael Ovitz: It's got to. It's got to.

Michael Ovitz: But you have to be selfless to do that, David. It's like what you're doing, you need volume. I told you this. You need IP. You need to expose people that are underexposed, expose people that are overexposed, and rein them in, so that, for the audience, so they get their essence. Listen, when I listen to your... This is going to sound really stupid to you, but I never claimed to be the smartest guy in the room or the dumbest. I'm sort of in the middle.

Michael Ovitz: When I listened to the Vanderbilt podcast you did, now he's dead. So, you did a podcast based on a book you read. I read the same book, but I hadn't read it for 20 years, and maybe less, I don't remember. But you took all the salient points out of it.

Michael Ovitz: You hit a point which, to use a minor point, and to me, said a lot about the time and the person. You told a story of how he was in a buggy thinking about sailing ships versus steamships, and that he knew he had to make a big move, and it was really dangerous because they didn't know if the steamship technology really worked. But he had to sell all his sailing ships to raise the money.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: And he was kind of absent-minded and stopped. He was on his buggy. I don't remember the exact story.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: But he stopped, and somebody kind of attacked him or something. And he got out of the buggy, and he beat the guy up.

David Senra: Yeah, he did.

Michael Ovitz: And that story resonated with me because I respected the guy's brain for what he'd built. I respected the guy's brain based on your podcast for his foresight. And he did it not once, which for me is the key.

David Senra: He wrote multiple successful technological waves.

Michael Ovitz: Railroads when the boats became-

David Senra: Yes.

David Senra: It's very hard for a company and a person to disrupt themselves, to say, "Hey, I got really wealthy," and essentially ferrying people-

Michael Ovitz: And now I got to get rid of it.

David Senra: Exactly. And especially your point about the technology was interesting because yeah, we might have a debate, should we adopt this new AI technology or this new software? That technology was killing people. People, the steamship technology, it kept blowing up. So, you'd have these explosions. They knew that's where it was going to go, because you needed powered sailing.

Michael Ovitz: Yeah, but you didn't know if it worked.

David Senra: Then that's the crazy thing is like, no, I'm going to disrupt myself, get rid of the business that made me wealthy at the time.

Michael Ovitz: He was one of the first disruptors, and he did it with railroads. He realized he couldn't deliver inland with a boat, which sounds pretty simple, but-

David Senra: Yes.

David Senra: He realized his business was transportation, not sailing.

Michael Ovitz: Yes. But-

David Senra: And when you think about what is your true business, it's not sailing. It's like, I just want to move people and goods from point A to point B, and how do I do that?

Michael Ovitz: But here's the point of your story. To me, only me, this shows you, me, which, as opposed to anyone else, and I don't know who else would think this. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. I don't really care. Here's a guy who had foresight, commitment, and courage. He wasn't afraid. Fear is the killer and enemy of business. Fear is the thing that kills business.

Michael Ovitz: And we had a period in this country where people were scared to death to do things. Every single time I had an idea... I told this story to somebody yesterday at a meeting I was at. Every idea I ever had or developed that someone else gave me, somebody told me it wouldn't work. And gave me all the articulate reasons, and it was always more than one person.

Michael Ovitz: "You can't start an agency at 26. There are 180 of them, and you'll never make it. It's too competitive. You need too much money to do it. You won't get the big clients. You'll never sign movie stars."

David Senra: Oh, no. I'm glad you said that. That's one of my favorite parts of your book because again, when I'm reading a book, I actually see some of the scene-- You know, a book is essentially a movie for the mind, right? You have to come up with the visuals yourself. And there's this line in your book where they're like, and you're like, "Hey, I'm planning on signing a movie, the big movie stars." And you're like, "They're locked up. You'll never get them." And you said, "I'll get all of them." And I don't know if you did this, but literally what I just did, leaned forward.

Michael Ovitz: No, I did. I did.

David Senra: Like, just leaned forward and was like, "I will get all of them."

Michael Ovitz: I know, remember the guy I said it to.

Michael Ovitz: I remember the guy I said it to. He was a successful agent. He handled about 500 top writers in television, but never steered out of TV. If I had his business, and I told him this in that meeting, which is what stimulated his comment, I would have signed every movie writer.

David Senra: This is why I don't think your assessment-- And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, obviously, you know I wouldn't disrespect you intentionally. It's like, I do think you're creative. You're saying, "Oh, I don't have any talent. I'm not creative." This idea where you just said something about like, "Hey, I don't... I don't even see guardrails, and if you put a guardrail in front of me, I'm going to hop over that." If you look at where you took... There's a note from a friend of ours, "Ovitz didn't look at the existing agency business as the boundary of his opportunity. He decided on his own what he wanted to do, and then he did it."

David Senra: And he talks about the flywheel that you built up, this huge density of talent. And you said, "Hey, I can control the supply, and I can actually just create the entire package, instead of just handling this like one little silo."

Michael Ovitz: Well, we-

David Senra: That's creativity.

Michael Ovitz: Not really, but I understand. It's creative business, but it's not... We called it Creative Artists for a reason. Marty Scorsese, in his brain, can cut a movie while he's shooting one camera at a time. I asked, "Why do we have... How many cameras have you got?" I learned that from Marty. I learned so much about movies from Marty, that when I gave him an award in New York 25 years ago, I learned so much from that guy.

Michael Ovitz: I said in front of 1,500 people that when I met Marty in '79, and he was in a bit a trouble, not creatively but financially, and he wasn't getting the movies made he wanted to make, he became like a student of business. Ten years later, he was the teacher, and I was the student, and I learned so much from him.

Michael Ovitz: But he has the ability to look at this setup here and cut it in his head and know where... He used to take his scripts, and on the left-hand page that's blank, he'd stick draw the scene and put little dots where the camera was going. And if you look at his camera work and the way his scenes are put together, and the way he and Thelma, who cuts his movies, the amount of precision and handwork, it's genius. I can't do that.

Michael Ovitz: But what I can do is smell things that I think work. There was a period in the '80s where it became very clear, in the mid-'80s, that the studios were in financial trouble. And it started for me when Universal stock traded to a point where the book value of the-- the market cap of the company was the value of the real estate in Burbank.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: And a guy named Steinberg, Saul Steinberg, started buying up shares and threatening to overtake the company. It became very clear to me a number of opportunities were available to me and CAA.

David Senra: That's an act of creativity. When you realize that the Japanese was just a new form of bank for the studios.

Michael Ovitz: Well, but I'd been going to meet them because they were a dominating industry in the '80s, if you'll recall. They were making all the gadgets.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: And I was fascinated by Akio Morita, and I read his biography.

David Senra: One of my favorite books.

Michael Ovitz: It's unbelievable.

David Senra: The idea that that guy, that they could start Sony, right? Right after World War II, the Americans had occupied Tokyo. They start Sony in a bombed-out department store because-- I think they lost a... 66% of the population in Tokyo had left, right? Most of the structures were either destroyed or they were severely damaged.

David Senra: The very first office of Sony, which is going to become this massive conglomerate, they had to have umbrellas at their desk when they founded Sony, and they're young kids. I think Akio was 25 at the time, and his co-founder was a little older, maybe he was 32. And they'd have umbrellas on their desk because when it rained at work, their papers would get wet.

Michael Ovitz: In 1951, starting in '50, when the war wounds were still fresh, if you lost someone in the Bataan Death March, or in World War II to a Japanese soldier or a German soldier, you didn't forget it by 1950. Akio Morita moved his entire family to New York City.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: You want to talk about courage when I talk about Vanderbilt getting out of the buggy and defending himself? He didn't have any security. He did it on his own. You want to talk about courage?

David Senra: Let's talk about Akio because this is something I wanted to talk about when we were at dinner, and I forgot because I'd just finished re-reading his book. And one of the most remarkable things in the book is-- You know, remember, Akio came from... His family had a family sake business that was 300 years old.

Michael Ovitz: Yes.

David Senra: His life had essentially a path set out for him. I think he was going to be the 16th firstborn male heir to take over the business, and he's like, "I'm not interested in this. I'm obsessed with electronics." He was into physics, he was into engineering, he loved technology.

David Senra: And him and his co-founder go and meet his dad, and they're like, "Hey," and he's like, "I really think... If it'd be okay with you, your son comes and helps me build this company that's going to turn into Sony." And what was remarkable about this, is his dad's like, "Well, I had a plan for my son's life." And he tells his son, "But go do what you're going to do, because if I know you, you're going to do what you want to do anyways."

Michael Ovitz: Very wise man.

David Senra: Spoke how-

Michael Ovitz: Very wise man.

David Senra: Think about how-- He knew who his son was.

Michael Ovitz: My dad was like that and had no high school education. He had a way with words that was extraordinary. He had great common sense. And Morita had a father who let him go with no guilt, but he had something else that I was very impressed by. When I was advising him, he told me a story at dinner one night that I'll never forget to this day.

Michael Ovitz: The man who became his number two was named Norio Ohga. And Norio Ohga, I said to Mr. Morita at dinner, "Could you please tell me the story of how you found him?" And he said, "Michael, I didn't find him, he found me." I said, "What happened?" He said, "Sony released their first reel-to-reel tape recorder." You know this story?

David Senra: Yes. It's hire a paid critic.

Michael Ovitz: Ohga was in college.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: He was a senior. He was getting ready to look for a job. He went and auditioned at a store, the reel-to-reel. He couldn't afford it. He wrote a 10-page, handwritten, single-spaced letter to Morita critiquing the reel-to-reel, ripping it to smithereens.

Michael Ovitz: Morita made all the changes and offered Ohga a job, and moved him through the company like a hot knife through butter.

David Senra: And he eventually becomes president of Sony.

Michael Ovitz: President of Sony.

David Senra: Akio said something that's very fascinating. He's like, "Listen, just like a ballet dancer needs a mirror. We needed an aural mirror, where this guy had a refined sense of music and hearing that I lacked." And so, instead of being, "Oh," upset, like, "You're trashing the product that I made," he took the 10-page document, he's like, "Oh, this is, these are actually good ideas. We need to work with this guy."

Michael Ovitz: But think about what you just said. Instead of rejecting it or getting upset or saying, "What does he know? He's a senior in college," he took the whole thing and used it. I was very lucky, by the way. You want to talk about luck. I lived in a building in New York that was... I set up because I'd come in at all hours of the night, because I never wanted to be out of LA more than one day and one night, or two nights, I meant.

Michael Ovitz: And living above me was Martin Scorsese, and above him was Norio Ohga.

David Senra: Oh, wow.

Michael Ovitz: So I would go visit them at night, because I'd finish working in New York at usually about 9:00, because that's 6:00 in LA. Sometimes 9:30, and I'd always have dinner at around 10:00, unless I had a client dinner, which was always at 8:00. And then I'd go see Marty. And he'd every night, watches a movie. Every single night.

Michael Ovitz: And sometimes if I didn't get dinner, I'd bring take-out food upstairs, and listen to him and ask him questions, and it was like taking a master's degree in film. And it's where I learned, he knew every old director. I mean, every director he respected. I learned about a guy like Michael Powell, who did "The Red Shoes," and no one knows about that movie to this day. And it was the most influential director on Marty imaginable.

Michael Ovitz: And I learned to be able to talk to Stanley Kubrick. He never had an agent except me, and I could talk to him because Marty basically educated me, and I did a lot of reading, and I knew about those old directors, and I had all of our people trained in the history of film and the history of television. I bought every book that was published.

Michael Ovitz: For example, they had these big coffee table books on all the studios, bought dozens of them, so our agents could just look through the pictures. I bought a book, I'll never forget, "The History of the Emmys," and it listed-- This is pre-computer, all the Emmy awards from the first Emmy broadcast. History of the Academy Awards. I made our people watch every film in the history of the Academy Awards that won Best Picture, Best Actress, Best Actor, Best Director, Best Writer, and Best Movie.

Michael Ovitz: Now they didn't have to watch every bit of it because some of them were really slow, but they got familiar with who were these actors. Who's Gary Cooper? Who's Robert Mitchum? Who's Lana Turner? Who are these people, and what did they contribute? And by doing that, our people were so fluent in their business. They could talk television, they could talk movies, they could talk music. They knew history because past is prologue.

Michael Ovitz: If you know history, you pretty much can predict the future.

David Senra: I read something Jeff Bezos said that changed my perspective on the importance of high-quality sleep. He said that he makes sure he gets eight hours of sleep a night, and as a result, his mood, his energy, and his decision-making is improved. His point was that you get paid to make high-quality decisions, and you can't do that if you're sleeping terribly. And the product that has made the biggest impact on my quality of sleep for years is Eight Sleep. I'm lucky enough to be friends with the founder of Eight Sleep, Matteo, and we live in the same city.

David Senra: A few months after I started using my Eight Sleep, I randomly ran into Mateo at a restaurant. I was with some friends, and I went over to say hi. When I got back to my table, my friend asked me who I was talking to. I said, "That's Matteo, the founder of Eight Sleep." And my friend replied, "He looks like he gets good sleep." Matteo is living and breathing his product. I have never had the ability to change the temperature of my bed before I had an Eight Sleep. I had no idea how much that would improve the quality of my sleep. I keep my Eight Sleep ice cold.

David Senra: It's cold before I get into bed, so I fall asleep faster and wake up less during the night. That feature alone is worth 10 times the price. There are very few no-brainer investments in life, and I believe that Eight Sleep is one of them. That is why elite founders like Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk have all said publicly that they use Eight Sleep. I would recommend getting the Pod 5, which is their newest generation of their signature product. It is a smart mattress cover that you place right on top of your existing mattress, and it is next-level sleep technology.

David Senra: It automatically regulates your body temperature throughout the night independently for each side of the bed. The result? Up to one full hour of additional quality sleep per night. Make the no-brainer investment in your sleep by going to EightSleep.com/Senra, and use the code SENRA to get up to $700 off. This is Eight Sleep's biggest sale of the year, and it goes from now until December 1st.

David Senra: You can try your Eight Sleep mattress cover for up to 30 days at home and return it if you don't like it, but I'm confident that you will love it. I would never let anyone take my Eight Sleep from me, so make sure you get your own at EightSleep.com/Senra.

David Senra: If you reach the top of your profession, you could be a tennis player, a sushi chef, an entrepreneur, a film director. They all have this encyclopedic knowledge of their industry in their head that they can draw on at any time.

David Senra: Let me give you an example tied to Morita because it kills me when I talk to founders, young founders now. They don't even know who this guy was, and I was like, "You should study him. You should read about him." They're like, "Oh, why?" Well, Steve Jobs built Apple, right? He was obsessed with Morita. Jeff Bezos built Amazon. They literally will talk, if you read their biographies, you listen to their interviews, they will talk about the things they spent... Why would they fly to Japan and want to go meet them, and spend time with them, and read their books, and study them?

David Senra: It's like this guy obviously had genius ideas, and one of the ideas that Bezos says that he used at the very beginning of Amazon that he learned from Morita was, the importance of having a goal and a mission bigger than yourself. And so Morita's point was, it's not, "Hey, we're going to build the best technology, and we're going to sell it, and we're going to get rich." His point was, at the time, Japanese products were thought of to be inferior, s***ty, copycat products.

Michael Ovitz: By the way, they were.

David Senra: Exactly and he wasn't-

Michael Ovitz: They were and he faced it.

David Senra: And so his point was, he goes, "We're not going to be..." This is the genius thing that he did. "We're not going to make Sony known for high-quality products." We're going to make Japan known for high-quality products.

Michael Ovitz: Big thinker. Big thinker. Big thinker. I remember sitting with him, and I told him that in 1961, my father gave me a gift of a transistor radio, and it had to be, David, eight inches high, three inches thick, and it was a portable, and it was made in Japan. The Americans invented the transistor and licensed it to Japan, to Sony, for $25,000. The Americans invented the reel-to-reel tape recorder at Ampex.

Michael Ovitz: As you know, we've discussed this. It was invented by a bunch of engineers to be able to record pornography, because they were using an eight-millimeter kinescope to do that, and it was inconvenient. You know, oddly, porn drives a lot of technology in the old days. But it's all about thinking big. It's about doing things that are unexpected.

Michael Ovitz: It's about when you say to someone, "I think I want to save Universal and sell it to money that is not in the country, so there's nothing they can do to take it."

David Senra: Yeah. Your point was like, "You can't move the studio."

Michael Ovitz: Can't move the studio. I got criticized, cover of "Newsweek," when I sold Columbia Pictures to Mr. Morita, which was part of the strategy, because I had sold him with Pete Peterson and Steve Schwarzman, because he was on the board. And Steve had just started Blackstone and was brilliant. And we sold Columbia Records to Sony first, which paved the way for Columbia Studios.

Michael Ovitz: It was CBS Records, actually, now Columbia. And for me, it served multiple purposes. One, it kept these legacy businesses right where they needed to be. Two, Japan was cheap financing because they had cheap money and tons of it.

Michael Ovitz: And three, having a 75% market share of the talent for me wasn't enough, which people thought I was crazy, because no one had ever gotten over 25. We had 46 of the top 50 grossing filmmakers in the world.

David Senra: That's nuts.

Michael Ovitz: And to me, I missed because I wanted 50, because it gave me even more leverage for our clients. But I wanted the leverage with the buyer, too. So, if I sold the studio to a Japanese company that no one had a relationship but me and my staff, then CEA moved another notch up in the ecosystem.

Michael Ovitz: So by the time we got done, we had sold Columbia, Universal, got financing for Warners, where they were in trouble, when Steve Ross was alive, and sold MGM and saved it when the accountants wanted to plow it under. And every time I went to do that, I was criticized. When I said I wanted to do advertising, because we had the skillset to-- We understood culture, that was our job.

Michael Ovitz: Why did I look at these magazines? I want to understand culture. Why did I read? Why did I collect art? When I started collecting art, people thought I was crazy, except the directors. When the directors came for dinner, they were mesmerized by the art. And why? Because you take... As I said, David Lynch, who I did a show for, Tim Burton, we did an art show, or Martin Scorsese, we did an art show in New York.

Michael Ovitz: Take some of the frames out of their movies, and make them, reproduce them, mount them, frame them in an art frame, and hang them on a museum wall, you have a piece of art. It's just different source.

David Senra: It's moving art.

Michael Ovitz: Yes, and it's the same thing. Common denominator. People don't see past their nose. So what we try to do is train people to look further out. How do you get to the next step? Why did we do advertising? One, because I thought we could do it. Two, we had a better idea, which we did. Three, all our clients had downtime.

Michael Ovitz: So everyone said, "Oh, movie directors don't do advertising." Well, that's complete utter nonsense. They want to make money when they're not doing anything, and they get to work five days and make a million dollars.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: So they all did it, and all the other agents that criticized us looked just pitifully stupid because they not only did it, they enjoyed it. Coke was doing six commercials a year. For the same budget, we did 35.

Michael Ovitz: For the same budget. And we got Quincy Jones to redo their theme song, and we changed their saying for the time, which was "Always Coke," is what we came up with. Quincy did a theme song in six beats. He did it in urban, he did it in rural, I mean, in city, he did it in country and western, he did it in classical, and we used it all over the world.

David Senra: There's something tactical about the Coke deal that I was thinking of when I was reading your book. You knocked it out of the park with them. They even told you how happy they were, and yet they sent you a check. And I can't remember what check. I think they sent you like a three million dollar...

Michael Ovitz: No, no. They sent me a check for a commercial. We did a black and white commercial. A guy who just passed away named Len Fink, who I stole from Jay Chiat, who was a genius advertising guy in LA, Chiat Day, they were amazing.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: And what did I do? I reviewed who was amazing, I found the guy, and I went and got him.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: And everyone was shocked that I got him. And I got him before we got the deal, so I got him and a woman named Shelley Hockrin, who did the most brilliant ad campaign ever at Paramount for Warren Beatty's movie, "Reds." It was just genius.

David Senra: But they send you a check.

Michael Ovitz: They send me a check. We did a black and white commercial. They sent me a check. You're right, it was for three million dollars.

David Senra: Something like that, yeah.

Michael Ovitz: No, it was three million.

David Senra: Okay.

Michael Ovitz: They sent the check for three million for the cost of the commercial.

David Senra: Okay.

Michael Ovitz: I send it back. Intentionally telling them the commercial cost $30,000, and that they misread the invoice, because they thought I made a mistake on the invoice. Not me, our accounting guys, because we billed for $30,000. They said, "We've-"

David Senra: Yeah, that was one of your deals.

Michael Ovitz: "We never had a-"

David Senra: Like, you're not going to charge more than-

Michael Ovitz: Yeah.

David Senra: Okay.

Michael Ovitz: They said, "We never had a commercial for less than three million, so we were thrilled, and we thought you made a mistake, and we trust you, so we sent you the money." Sent it back. Sent the check back, void. Because I said, "We did it on a Apple II..." Len Fink did the commercial on an Apple IIe computer, the first computer Steve Jobs came out with. And we did it in black and white, and they didn't want to take the check back.

Michael Ovitz: And that gave me the opening I wanted.

David Senra: Okay, explain that to me.

Michael Ovitz: I said to them, "We don't want you to overpay anyone except us." "You're not going to overpay for commercials, but you've got to pay us." And by that time, we had delivered the polar bears, which they're still using 40 years later. Think about that. We delivered 350 commercials over our tenure with them. No one's ever done that. Madison Avenue got paranoid.

David Senra: But what was the difference between what they wanted to pay you and what you eventually were valuing your own work at?

Michael Ovitz: It was huge. It was huge.

David Senra: So how do you get them from an-

Michael Ovitz: Well, no. What they were paying for was a commercial.

David Senra: Yeah.

David Senra: Yeah. But I remember in the book, you essentially got them to pay... Whatever the number was, they were trying to settle up on. What they actually settled up on was considerably larger.

Michael Ovitz: Because I basically said, "There's not much to talk about. It's all visually available." You ran the 35 commercials, and I suggested they do them in the theater in their building on Fifth Avenue, Fifth and 55th, where Allen & Company is. And I said, "Run..." And it's Herb Allen who got me into this.

David Senra: Which is also your mentor. Herb Allen II, right?

Michael Ovitz: The best. The best man on the planet. You want to talk about integrity? I sat in his office where Sumner Redstone sent him a check for a million dollars, rather than complete hiring him as the banker when he bought Paramount, because Herb was the banker of record and somehow got pushed out of it. And as Herb's talking to me, sitting where you're sitting, he took a scissors out of his desk, and while he's talking to me, starts cutting up the check.

Michael Ovitz: And he cut it in the finest pieces that he could. And then he took it on the desk, and he put it in the envelope that Sumner sent it in and sent it back to him by messenger.

Michael Ovitz: This guy had the highest integrity I've ever seen in my life. Never lied, never wanted publicity, didn't want to be in the limelight. Did every deal with me, and I learned everything. My son said, "How'd you learn how to be an investment banker?" I said, "I did it, and Herb Allen made sure I didn't make any mistakes." But, you know, we talked about mentors before. Tamara said to me the most interesting thing.

Michael Ovitz: She said, "You give so many of people good advice." She said, "You only give bad advice to one person."

David Senra: Yourself?

Michael Ovitz: Yes.

David Senra: Interesting.

Michael Ovitz: And it's true. I've made some of the worst decisions imaginable because I've had no one like me to talk to.

David Senra: When's the last time you made a bad decision?

Michael Ovitz: Well, I make bad decisions on a regular basis.

David Senra: A consequential one, though.

Michael Ovitz: Well, consequential's a different story. I mean, I made some bad decisions in parts of my career where I could have done things differently. That's a whole another podcast. But, you know what's interesting? Patrick Collinson, who I have amazing respect for, I got a call from him when my book-- about six months after my book came out. Three months? I don't remember. I lived in San Francisco. He said, "What are you doing for lunch this week?" And then we made a lunch date.

Michael Ovitz: I went to the office, I sat down with my tray in his commissary. My book's sitting right there with 90 or 100 yellow post-its in it.

David Senra: Yeah. I know those.

Michael Ovitz: And I said... You know this story.

David Senra: I do. No, I do the same thing with my books. You've seen them.

Michael Ovitz: Patrick sits down. He said, "Are you ready?" I said, "Yeah, I'm starving." He goes, "No, no, no, no, no. See your book?" I said, "Yeah." He says, "I have a lot of questions." I said, "Oh, sure. Anything." He said, "No. I want to know. I've marked every place you made a mistake.

Michael Ovitz: I want you to tell me why you made the mistake, what the options were, and what drove you to the decision." And I looked at him, and I'm saying to myself, "Wow, this kid's special." Then I said to myself, I said to Patrick, I said, "And what about the things I did right?" He said, "Who cares?" He said, "That's expected."

Michael Ovitz: So he went through for two and a half hours every mistake I made in the book. Not in the book, but I made in my career.

David Senra: Yeah.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: And I said... I walked out of there with such respect for this guy, that he took that time to do that in a business that has nothing to do with his, but everything to do with it. Because, as you and I said at dinner, every single business has the same parameters. When we talked earlier, when we started this discussion, I talked about how I was aware of what people that worked for me, or with me, because I called everyone a partner no matter what their interest in the business was.

Michael Ovitz: I called mail room people partners. I would go around and do the rounds. The rounds I learned from being involved with the UCLA Medical Center. I was a doctor. And at 10:30 and 4:30, I went around the building, and it took me 20 minutes, and I looked in people's offices. And if I saw a weird face or a weird voice inflection when they said hello or anything that tipped me off, I asked them to come see me.

Michael Ovitz: I had an open door from 7:00 to 7:45 every night before I went to dinner. I asked them to come see me. And every single time, there was a problem, and 90% of the problems were personal. The 10% business problems were easy to fix. The personal problems took a lot of time. If you want to put that kind of time in, you get loyalty. We didn't lose an agent in the whole time I was at CA. Not one.

David Senra: Yeah, that's nuts.

Michael Ovitz: Well, we paid people fairly. We paid them ahead of their market price. Everyone participated. Everyone was protecting each other. We didn't talk badly about people. We protected each other. If studios tried to roll over one of our people, we'd all get behind that person and make the studio miserable.

Michael Ovitz: And we elevated ourselves to a position, "Treat us nicely, and our clients will, in turn, do the things you need them to do." You'll pay them for it, by the way. And you'll probably pay them more than you're going to pay through other agencies. Listen, when I signed Mike Nichols from... He was one of the last people we took from ICM. And his agent, he'd been with him for 25 years.

Michael Ovitz: Mike Nichols' price, because he was put in with our clients, you know, Oliver Stone, Barry Levinson, Ron Howard, Stanley Kubrick, Steven Spielberg, Marty Scorsese, everybody. His price went up $2 million, because he fit into a higher strata price with us than with anybody else. And yes, when asked if we price fix, I say no and yes.

Michael Ovitz: We demanded for the triple-A clients, triple-A pricing. And you couldn't price one less than the other.

David Senra: So, you applied that same idea that you were using for filmmakers to your work with Coca-Cola, then?

Michael Ovitz: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I also did what I told you personally, volume. Coke, why did I do 35 commercials instead of six? Easier to do six.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: Did 35 because we'd run it. The idea I had, which they bought, which Herb Allen arranged at Sun Valley to meet with the team of Goizueta and Keough, the CEO and the COO, was, "Let's do a relay race. Let's have Coke thought of 365 days a year." How do we do that? "Well, it's simple. At Christmas, we do something about the cold and about Santa Claus," which was a Coke creation in the '30s.

Michael Ovitz: "Let's go to Valentine's Day, love." These are what the commercial bases are on. "Then we're going to go into Easter, family. Summer, thirst, heat, beach. Then we're going to go to the fall. What is it? It's back to school. Everybody's kids go back to school. Then we're going to go to Thanksgiving, we're back at family, and then we're going to roll right into Christmas. So, we're going to do our commercials specific to those seasons, rather than six commercials that play in every silo of television."

Michael Ovitz: How do you put a commercial on "Saturday Night Live" that you put on a daytime soap opera, that you put on "Seinfeld"? You can't do that, and we didn't. All our commercials were demographically tailored, and it killed it. We made the cover of "Time" magazine.

Michael Ovitz: And I go back to what I said to you before, everyone told me we would fail. Everyone said, "It's a stupid idea." Everyone said, "Your clients are going to get upset."

David Senra: When did you build the self-confidence to not listen to people? It annoys me. I see this in every single one of these biographies I read, where it's like, "Don't ever let somebody else tell you what you're capable of."

Michael Ovitz: I had this discussion-

David Senra: But you need self-confidence to ignore that information, so like, when did you... Or that critique, or that advice. What age? Did you have that when you were in high school? Did you have that before you founded CAA?

Michael Ovitz: I wrote about this in my book. This self-confidence appeared when I lost the ninth grade election for class president, and I did a complete post-mortem on myself, who my friend group was, and why I lost, because I didn't want to be a loser. I thought it was... And it was an apocryphal moment for me.

Michael Ovitz: And I worked for two years to build different social constituencies, and I went out of my way to make different friends in different areas of the... I had a 3,800-kid high school, so running for an office there was a big deal because everybody voted. And you had to speak to the entire school in three different assemblies because that's all they could get into the gym. And it was critical.

Michael Ovitz: I practiced public speaking when I was in the tenth grade and eleventh grade. And I won student body vice president, and then I won student body president by wide margins because I really worked it, no different than I worked any business I've been in. And I realized... And I said this to someone this morning on this call about this deal I'm doing.

Michael Ovitz: The young guy who's at number three, who started it, said to me, "I've never seen anyone move so fast from idea to execution of putting it together." And I said, "Because if you move slow, it doesn't go together." And he said, "You seem very confident about this idea." And I said, "Yes, I'm very confident about it because I see it crystal clear in its entirety."

Michael Ovitz: And he said, "I'm not sure that our... You know, that I'm confident about you meeting our founder, because you've probably heard a lot of nasty things about him." I said, "I've heard a ton of things, some good, some bad, but I really don't care." And he said, "Why do you not care?" I said, "Because I'll make my own judgment." I said, "I'm very good with people. I will know if what I've heard is true, false, or just baloney."

Michael Ovitz: And I said, "Frankly, if you want to know the truth, over my career, if you believed everything everyone said, I'd be a miserable failure and drummed out of life," you know? Because anyone who is confident, aggressive, has ideas, or wants to push the envelope is put down.

David Senra: Yeah. Jeff Bezos has a great line on this. He's like, "Well, if you don't want to be criticized, if you can't take being criticized, then you can't do anything."

Michael Ovitz: I'm going to leave you with a line that I used when I was 17 years old and gave a speech when I ran for student body president, because when I was student body vice president, I usurped the president's duties, and he was badmouthing me like crazy. And it was working pretty good, because I was having a run for my money.

Michael Ovitz: And I said to the students, all 4,000 of them, "I'd rather be a do-something president who's done something to be criticized, than a do-nothing president whom no one can criticize."

David Senra: Yeah, that's a great line.

Michael Ovitz: And that got me the election.

David Senra: I want to ask you a question because you've mentioned a few times where your appetite is essentially insatiable. So, you had 46 out of the top 50 highest-grossing films, like, the best talent. Then you had 75% market share in all of Hollywood. There's this great book, one of the most important books I've ever read. It was published in, like, 1957. It's called "The Mind of Napoleon."

Michael Ovitz: You got me into this.

David Senra: Yeah, it's a very hard-to-find book.

Michael Ovitz: No kidding.

David Senra: So I have friends that have paid $1,000, $2,000 for the book, and I think it's worth it, where it's essentially 300 pages of Napoleon in his own words. And there's something that, when I hear you speak, reminds me of Napoleon, where he said, essentially, that his ambition grew with his success. And he says it in French, but the translation is, "Appetite comes with eating." For excessively ambitious, driven people, it's not like, "Oh, I ate, so I'm full." It's like, "No, I've eaten and the more I eat, the more I want to eat."

Michael Ovitz: But that's 100% accurate. Listen, one of my clients who I'm crazy about, Francis Ford Coppola, wrote a screenplay that one of my clients that I was also crazy about, who passed away, named Franklin J. Schaffner, directed. It was called "Patton." I am a voracious reader on anything about military leaders. I've read about Patton, I've read about Omar Bradley, and I've read about Dwight D. Eisenhower as military leaders. Blows my mind.

Michael Ovitz: When everyone said to Patton, "You can't do this," he said, "Okay." He said, "You're right," and he just went and did it. How did he get his army to march double the amount of the standard army march, supply them, feed them, and not irritate them? Because he was a leader, and he had guts, and he wasn't afraid, and people couldn't stand him.

Michael Ovitz: Not his people, though. Not his people. So for me, if my people support me, I'm fine. What other people say, I don't really care. I don't think about it. I get asked this question every single day of my life. I am... Tamara calls me "The Truth Teller," because I say the truth. I said it to you. I gave you my best advice of what I thought you should do. I may not be right.

David Senra: No, you-

Michael Ovitz: No, I may not be; I may be.

David Senra: No, the funny part about that is... So, one thing is that... So, when I asked you earlier, I was like, "Hey, if you think about the people who are the best in the world at what they do, if one trait... Think about all the people you met that are the best in the world at what you do, you became the best in the world at what you do. What is the single most important trait that you've observed across all these people?" My answer to that question would be focus. And so, I'm insanely focused on just podcasting, and I only think about it. That's basically all I think about all day long.

David Senra: And when we had that very intense three-hour dinner, 20 minutes of it was you explaining, "This is what I would do if I was you."

Michael Ovitz: But that's just to push you.

David Senra: But the interesting part was, as I told you, like, the advice you had for me, I had already put into... It wasn't public, so you didn't know this... Put into motion. I was like, "It's pretty impressive that you can come from outside with something I think about all the time, and you nailed the single best opportunity."

Michael Ovitz: But that's the only talent I have. That's my point.

David Senra: That's not the only talent you have.

Michael Ovitz: No, I have the ability to think out of the box on any business.

David Senra: Which is creative.

Michael Ovitz: No... I'm not going to argue with you. I have the ability to think out of the box on any business, even though if I don't know the business, because I have this thesis, and I've said it 100 times to you and to everybody else, every business is the same. Now, the details are different, right? But the businesses, the blocking and tackling is all the same.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: And it's always about momentum, and focus, and loyalty, and aggressive control of marketplace and monopoly. Monopoly. I'm a monopolist. If we were going to build a business, you have to be number one, and you have to have the lion's share of what you're doing, or the lion's share of opportunities of what you do. If you pass for fundamental reasons, that's good too.

Michael Ovitz: But you can't do anything halfway. It's crazy. This I learned as a kid. There's nothing. Like, when I had a paper route at nine, I realized that I had enough time to do three paper routes, and I went and, under another name, got the other two.

Michael Ovitz: Because the guy delivering the bulk of papers thought he was delivering to three different people, and he thought no one could do all three, and I figured out I could do it, and then I hired someone to help me when it became an issue. So, it's always about thinking of the next step. It's a great Bruce Lee line, which I showed you a few... "If this is where you want to punch, this is not the target. This is the target back here, and you punch through." That sounds stupidly, naively, innocently kind of elementary.

David Senra: Mm-hmm.

Michael Ovitz: But if you think about the broader ramification about that, it's a foundation of business. And those are all things that I think are important. You talked about Michael Dell. I saw Michael Dell at a conference in Aspen last year. That guy's still working every hour of the day.

David Senra: He's a remarkable person. He started his company at 18, he's in his 60s, has no desire at all to stop.

Michael Ovitz: But that's my point.

David Senra: You know, he had a paper route too.

Michael Ovitz: And-

David Senra: But he figured out this crazy, in his own way, of how to maximize how many subscriptions he could sell, and he realized that if you were either... There were two people that bought newspaper subscriptions in Texas. Texas has a much higher rate than the general population, which are newlyweds and people that moved.

David Senra: And so he's like, "Hey, all that information is public in Texas." He went down to the courthouse, brought a computer, right? His Apple II computer, and he just had them pull, "Give me a list of all the people that are married, just recently married, and all the people who recently moved." Just, like, doing that at 12. He was 12 years old.

Michael Ovitz: But think about what you just said. Detail, right? Drive, ambition, don't give up, just keep going. You know, I had a dinner in London. I don't remember if I told you this story. Recently.

Michael Ovitz: With a friend of Tamara's who's a businessman, and five guys in business asked to have a dinner with me because they want to understand why American businessmen are so successful on a comparative basis, broadly, to other people around the world. Why are they so successful? And there are a lot of reasons, but the... We sat down at the table, very formal, everybody in suits. The five guys were in their 50s.

Michael Ovitz: They all were pretty successful except one, who opened the dinner, and said, "I'm..." He started the dinner and said, "I'm moving to Gstaad from London." "Oh," I said, "taxes?" He said, "No."

David Senra: Skiing?

Michael Ovitz: So I said, "Do you like..." No, that was the question I said, first question, in front of everybody, before we ordered. "Do you like to ski?" He said, "No." I said, "What happened?" He said, "My business bank went bankrupt." I said, "Okay, you don't like to ski, you're leaving London, you're going to Gstaad, and it's not a tax problem, and your business failed." I said, "So what?" He said, "What do you mean 'So what?'"

Michael Ovitz: I said, "Failure is a part of life. In America, failure is a badge of honor. It means you tried. You get back up on your horse, and you try it again. I've failed at a number of things. Doesn't stop me." And all of a sudden, the meeting was pretty much over, because I said to him, "We don't need to talk about this anymore. There is no such thing as failure. It doesn't exist. You cannot give up." And by the time we got done with dinner, he was not going to move to Gstaad, and ultimately did not, and is working on a new business.

David Senra: I'm glad you brought that up because one of the things, there's... One of my favorite lines, so, you know this, I take... Every book I read, right? I try to distill it down to the 10 most important sentences in the book. And one of them for you was... This is completely... I stripped it of all context, because I think if you just read the sentence, you'll understand why this sentence is important.

David Senra: So, I'm not even talking about what's happening in the book, but this is the sentence I wrote down. "He stopped because it was hard. It required discipline, dedication, and hours and hours of time. Everyone stopped. I didn't stop."

David Senra: It's one of my 10 favorite sentences in your book. My question to you is, how much of your success do you attribute to just pure endurance or pure perseverance?

Michael Ovitz: I mean, to me, it's just part of a fabric of me. And I'm not suggesting I live the right kind of life. It's good for me. I want to stay edgy. I want to stay with young people. Most of my relationships now are with young people. I learn. I feel, I get up in the morning, I have a purpose.

David Senra: When you were building CAA, though, you were under enormous amounts of stress. Was there... And you had this crazy schedule that you detail in your book, essentially on it 20 hours a day, 200 phone calls, 300 phone calls a day. Was there ever a time where you almost quit?

Michael Ovitz: No. Failure's not an option when you come from where I came from.

David Senra: But even after you were already wealthy, you weren't working for money.

Michael Ovitz: It's not about money.

David Senra: Yeah, you weren't working for money.

Michael Ovitz: It's about a whole series of other things, and when you grow up in the San Fernando Valley, and your father makes about 300 bucks a week on a good week, and you don't get any allowance, and you have to have a paper route at 9:00 to be able to go buy an ice cream, and you're also saving for a car because when you're 16, you know your dad can't afford it, failure's not an option. It's binary. There's no option.

Michael Ovitz: Success or death. It's like, what are you going to do? It's you don't have any choice. I don't want to go back to the Valley. It's the most scary thought of my life.

David Senra: Do you think that still drives you? Like, you're so... I know you're intelligent enough to realize that would never possibly happen, but I can't help but notice that, like, you still don't let your foot off the gas.

Michael Ovitz: That's not the reason. I like it. I love the action. I love meeting people. I love learning. I love being focused. I like to get into new things.

David Senra: So, when did your motivation come from, "I'm obsessed with this; I love this"? Because at the beginning, it was, "I don't want to be a loser."

Michael Ovitz: Yeah.

David Senra: Right? So, when did that switch from, "I am terrified to wind up like..." You said in your book, you felt like you were born in the wrong nest, like a cuckoo bird, right? It's like, "I'm not in the right situation for what I feel my life should be," right?

Michael Ovitz: Well, I always say I should've grown up on the East Coast.

David Senra: Why?

Michael Ovitz: Because it's a very different environment. It's a creative environment in LA, or it used to be, not much anymore as it should be, but New York was about multi-different businesses and culture, and art, film, music, finance, and advertising. Everything was in New York when I was a kid.

David Senra: Let's go to New York in one second, but this, it went from, "This can't be my life," is the way I describe it. "This can't be my life," is a very powerful motivator in your early life. Now it has switched to, "I'm obsessed with this. I don't ever even think of retirement. I'm constantly, like, inspired every day. I want to, like, create new things." So when did that switch in your life happen, though? When did it come from almost like a negative motivation, to a positive one?

Michael Ovitz: You mean as far as gaining the confidence to try to do?

David Senra: I don't even know if it's confidence. It's just, like, your source of... This inner desire to win, this burning desire to achieve mission success, and that's very obvious in your early life, right? The source of that was an unhappiness, a deep unhappiness with your present station in life. And eventually, that drives you so much that you... It almost, I would say, caused a lot of people's success.

David Senra: Now you're not worried about ever going back to the Valley, and now you've... The source of your motivation and your drive every day is like, "Oh, I'm just... Like, I'm completely obsessed with this."

Michael Ovitz: So, it's a really smart question, and I've got to answer it, and it kind of brings me full circle here.

Michael Ovitz: I say this to certain people I'm close to, which is, there are parts of me that still live in the Valley that I'll never forget my whole life, and it's going to sound crazy stupid, but... I find myself sometimes. I remember when I was a kid, and my dad was a liquor salesman, and some of his accounts were restaurants.

Michael Ovitz: So he used to take us to early bird dinners because he would get a discount on the dinner before 6:00. And we'd go at 5:50 to a restaurant that I thought was fancy that had full three-course meals for $4.95, $5.95. Think about that. And he'd order one drink, which he never drank. He just nursed it because it was his product.

Michael Ovitz: And we were not allowed to order lobster, or steak, or anything over a certain price on the menu. And I was saying to Tamara the other day, occasionally, that I slide back into that. Which is weird, because I don't even look at checks anymore when they come. I mean, we had dinner together. You saw that. I just sign the check.

Michael Ovitz: But sometimes, I find myself looking at a menu, and automatically glancing to the price, for no reason, by the way. I don't care. But it's my childhood, and I think it overwhelms me sometimes.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: Which I find a positive, by the way, because I still feel like winning, and I still feel like competing, and I still feel like bringing up... Right now, my mission is to bring young people along, and to do well, and to make change, and to be charitable, and to help young people not make the mistakes I made. And I'm enjoying it, and it just... That flame is not going out.

David Senra: It doesn't sound silly nor stupid to me at all. I keep saying this over and over again. I feel I just tell the same story every week, because the same personality type just reappears over and over again throughout history, this entrepreneurial, super-driven, type A personality type. Obviously, you have it. I think I have it as well. And it's separated by time in which they lived. They live in different parts of the world. They work in different industries.

David Senra: And yet, that same personality type... It's the same way I feel. I just... My older brother called me, and it's, like, very hard to get time with me, because I work seven days a week. Like, my eyes are open, and I'm thinking about work. And he's just like, "Well, why are you working so hard?" And I was like, "Because, like, look up and down our family tree. It's just, like, nothing but losers on both sides."

Michael Ovitz: But-

David Senra: And what I feel I'm doing is... And it makes no... It's not logical.

Michael Ovitz: But David, think about this. I wouldn't be here if we weren't like-minded. Doesn't matter what we do.

David Senra: Yeah, it's the first thing you said to me when we sat down for the very first... Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have been friends with you. I wouldn't be interested, because there's no common denominator.

David Senra: Yeah.

Michael Ovitz: There's no hook for a foundation for the relationship.

David Senra: So, again, a lot of these questions are selfish, because I use this format to learn directly from you. One of my favorite things, obviously, we spend summers in Malibu. When you're in Malibu, for... July 4th is a very important holiday to me. My dad's a Cuban immigrant.

David Senra: I'm hugely pro-capitalistic and hugely pro-American. And you can't do fireworks here because of all the fires. So, I've tried to figure out a way to celebrate America during July 4th for my daughter.

David Senra: And so what I do is, like, at first I made her do this, and now she does it on her own. I made her watch "Hamilton," the musical, on Disney+. And there's a... Now, she'll like... She knows all the songs, she went to go see it on Broadway, and she likes the soundtrack and everything else. But one of my favorite, probably my... There are two of my favorite songs in "Hamilton." It's like, one of them is "Non-Stop," which talks about volume, which me and you talk about over and over again.

David Senra: Just, the guy just wouldn't stop. He wouldn't stop writing. If he's awake, he's writing; he's trying to get his ideas out there. But the other thing is just the fact that he understood is... Same situation. Poor orphan kid comes to America.

David Senra: He's like, "It didn't matter..." He's the right hand of George Washington. He's the first Treasury Secretary. He was impossible to satiate. It was impossible. What he understood about himself is, like, "I will never be satisfied." I'm going to ask you this question. I think I already know the answer because we've talked enough. I just don't think that even registers with you. It's like, you will never be satisfied. You don't look at it as... There's no end to your ambition or what you want to do in this world.

Michael Ovitz: I'm going to give you a simple answer. I don't want it to.

David Senra: What do you mean?

Michael Ovitz: I don't want there to be an end to ambition, or enthusiasm, or curiosity, or the things that drive me to help people, to be an advisor to people. I don't get paid for being an advisor. You didn't pay me for having dinner with you. As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, I paid for dinner.

David Senra: I offered.

Michael Ovitz: Now that I think of it, I paid for dinner twice. Okay? In any case, I want that life, or I wouldn't do it. Believe me.

David Senra: I just read your friend Barry Diller's autobiography, which is really interesting, and he has a line in there. They're just like, "I don't even... I don't think about retirement. I'm not interested in it." He goes, "I wake up every day and have ideas."

Michael Ovitz: Yeah, well that's how I feel.

David Senra: Okay, so I'm going to change gears about what we were talking about real quick, because there's one thing on the list that I absolutely have to get to, and I want to get to. This will probably be the last thing we talk about. I want you to tell me about... We talked a lot about people who have a lot of charisma, a lot of intelligence. I love what you wrote in your book about your friendship, your deep friendship, your life... Sounds like a multiple-decade friendship with Michael Crichton.

Michael Ovitz: 30 years.

David Senra: What can you tell me about your relationship with Michael Crichton?

Michael Ovitz: Certain people have touched my life in a very unique way. Ben Horowitz and Marc Andreessen in '99 put me on their board, and I never met either of them, and they had the confidence in me to go into a business that I told them I knew nothing about. I mean, I had some experience in tech from '92 with my Andy Grove Intel CA deal, meeting Gates in '93. But nothing like they did.

Michael Ovitz: They grew up in Silicon Valley. That was a huge life change for me. Michael Crichton was one of these guys that at the beginning, I just needed to sign as a client to be on the roster, and after two or three meetings, I just said, "My God, this man is so special." He was not just intelligent to a degree I'd never seen at that time. This is 1979. He was thoughtful.

Michael Ovitz: He was ahead of everybody in his thinking. He was talking about computers in the early '80s. He was an Apple fellow when it was... No one knew what the hell that was. He traveled extensively and wrote articles about it, but kept notes on everything he did. And he loved art. He wrote the definitive textbook on Jasper Johns.

Michael Ovitz: To this day, it's the definitive book. And I talked to him every day of my life, seven days a week. Seven days a week. And if I didn't talk to him, it was odd, and I missed it. I would talk to him no matter where I was. I could be in Japan, I could be in Europe, I could be in New York, didn't make any difference to me. And sometimes the conversations were short, sometimes they were long. I enjoyed every second of it.

Michael Ovitz: Going on vacation with him was a lesson in curiosity. The guy kept notes on everything he saw. So I remember we were in the Caribbean together. He kept notes on everything that he saw, and that all ended up in movies. And I value loyalty as a very important point for me in a relationship. Every problem I had or every success, he was there for me.

Michael Ovitz: I remember I made a couple of huge mistakes, and he said to me something I've never forgotten. He said, "Forget it; there's always another rodeo." That's his line to me. And he's turned out to be right. I miss him every day of my life.

Michael Ovitz: His book stands on my desk, and a small, personal, collected by him, Frank Stella drawing that he gave me as a gift, is in a place I see it every single night before I go to sleep. And I love this guy. I was devastated when he passed away. Devastated because he passed away young, didn't have to. It was his own fault, I think.

David Senra: What happened?

Michael Ovitz: Well, he was a doctor, a medical doctor. So, I personally, I could be wrong, I don't know it for a fact, I think he kind of overdid the chemo, and I think that killed him. That's my guess. Or it's caused something to happen, but I don't know the facts, by the way. But a loss to me that was devastating. And I remember the night that his wife called me, because it was the night that Obama, I think, won the election; it was that night. I'm not sure.

Michael Ovitz: Some event happened, and I was in the back seat of the car, and I got the call, and I was devastated. But for me, a mega influence on my life, a mega loyal friend through thick and thin. Didn't matter what I did, he didn't judge me.

David Senra: And he had this extreme... I think I learned this from you. He had extreme work habits where, he wouldn't write every day, but when he wrote, he would write for, like-

Michael Ovitz: Yeah, I had all my writers, and we had 400 of them; we had different work ethics and different schedules. So James Clavell, who wrote "Shogun" and "Tai-Pan," he would write every day from 7:00 in the morning till 12:30, hell or high water, six days a week. And at 12:30, he went to lunch, and he didn't work until the next morning. And he did 10 pages a day. That's what he did. So you could almost tell when he was going to be done.

Michael Ovitz: And his books ran about 1,200 pages. Michael hated writing. He'd rather do thinking, and he waited for deadlines. And he wrote "Jurassic Park" in five months because he wrote 20 hours a day, six or seven days a week, because it was due, and he just waited.

David Senra: What do you think is the most important thing you learned from him?

Michael Ovitz: From him? Oh, unequivocally, curiosity about everything. The guy was curious about everything every day of his life. And loyalty, integrity, and how to create things out of nothing. What a mind that can think forward and backward.

Michael Ovitz: So in other words, he did movies like "The Great Train Robbery," 1850s with Sean Connery, and movies like "Andromeda Strain" about the future and his thought process, and then straight popcorn entertainment based on science that really isn't science, "Jurassic Park."

Michael Ovitz: But when you read the book, the first third of the book, you're being educated without you knowing about paleontology, and you actually think you understand it, and they give a PhD in it, it was genius what he did. So then, when the movie breaks loose, you actually think you understand what you're seeing. It's amazing. He was a genius.

David Senra: Relentless curiosity. That's a great place to close. Michael, thank you very much for doing this.

Michael Ovitz: Thank you, thank you, thank you to everybody.

David Senra: Absolutely.

David Senra: I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review, and make sure you listen to my other podcast, "Founders." For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through "Founders."